I have a problem with Orientalism. I don't disagree that it happens. I don't disagree that it has lead to bad things. However, speaking about it like orientalism is some peculiar invention of the West as a response to the Middle East is another case eurocentricism.
I would like to adress the cause instead of the symptoms. The symptoms are that under argueably intentional means there has been a strong cultural divide between Europe and America with respect to The Middle East. The cause is a more complicated beast than a simple choice to hate people from one specific region.
The act of judging, perhaps intentionally, another people as lesser, barbaric, corrupt, or whichever adjective you choose is ancient and easily predates "The Orient." For instance Rome looked on the Germans as a barbaric people with no ability to maintain a government only to be conquered by Theodoric. Before them China existed as a pillar of civilization and looked on other lands with disdain even as they may well have been equals. Orientalism seems to be a smaller element of the Us and Them effect.
Sociologist have proposed that 49 people is the most that we can have intense regular contact with. After that it begins to strain ones abilities and there is of being overwhelmed. This concept that this a maximum number of people that the average human can feel close to inevitably leads to a segmenting of populations. The microcosm of high school gives excellent examples. The circles can cross but there is an almost necessary division of the students into cliques. The bizarre truth reveals when you can start to see rivalries and feuds form. One group decides the other groups is dangerous. The nerd/jock rivalry is epic enough that I need not hash it up but still if we can see a conflict over who can sit where in a lunchroom than conflicts over actual wealth seem very reasonable.
I could drag this further down but I think my general argument has all ready been presented; Orientalism would better be called xenophobia.
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What I think is funny is that while I was doing research for a history paper about the rise of Egyptian Feminism, Egyptian intellectuals pulled an act of Orientalism when discribing the state of women in Muslim countries. Basically they said that even though women are treated pretty badly here they're not as bad as those in China. I guess the policy is to keep pushing the problem farther east until it falls off the edge of the earth.
but that still supposes it must flow East. We have this vision of the noble savage that was the Native American which is surely another case of Orientalism. I still think a term like Other-ism would suit it better.
I'm inclined to agree with your criticism of Said's theory and its name. It does smack of Eurocentrism, and Said's scholarship and teaching were on the European novel. Even if we agree that orientalism is one manifestation of the human need to "other" certain populations for the sake of consolidating one's own identity and making social life manageable, I think his work is valuable for identifying a discourse that has controlled the thinking of generations of Europeans and Americans about the orient. I think Lucie Duff-Gordon's comments are especially interesting since she is taking note of the process of "othering" eastern peoples at an early phase of the process when Western nations were becoming colonial powers: "Have we grown so very civilized since a hundred years, that outlandish people seem to us like mere puppets, and not like real human beings?"
What are you thoughts on the other forms of Orientalism, where the other is glorified as mystical and special?
Also, I think when you say "However, speaking about it like orientalism is some peculiar invention of the West as a response to the Middle East is another case eurocentricism," is slightly off. The whole concept of Orientalism has been consciously used politically to manipulate people. It's not merely speaking about it as a case of Eurocentrism, but as a tool of it.
In cases where we want to be friends, Orientalism is used to glorify all of the goodness of the other. When it's a case in which there needs to be hostility, reverse the adjectives.
Interesting point about the social limits of persons, though.
(Hah! I'm an Orientalist!)
~柯安仁
the idea of positive Orientalism brings up a longer and less clear rant/quandary I have on the line between judgment and stereotyping. I am not sure but I tempted to believe some stereotyping is neccesary or one would live as an eternal child.
I might have a bizzare and unsafe admiration for The Fool but I keep it in check and allow myself to on occasion check to see if the road is still there.
I will acknowledge that Orientalism exists and has been a very intentionally used in many cases. I really just wanted to see an acknowledgemnt that this is not something JUST done by "The West" to "The East."
There's a movement based around Occidentalism as well, if I recall correctly. It's the stuff of "Mecca-Cola!"
But I agree, though stereotypes are necessary, it leads to blurred caricatures of others, especially when there's not much of a chance to exchange culture because of the impacts of how those stereotypes are wielded.
~abc
I, too, have some issues with the definition of Orientalism as Said defines it. I prefer to think of any villianizing or condemnation as a result of the Us vs. Them mindset. I also believe this Us. vs. Them is not just a Western phenomenon. I'm sure if we looked at literature from the Middle East discussing Western culture, it would have some Us vs. Them attitudes, too.
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